A chat with Arlie Hochschild about her new book.

METTA SPENCER: Let me introduce my dear, long-time friend, Arlie Hochschild, whose new book has just been launched: Stolen Pride: Loss, Shame, and the Rise of the Right. It will get a lot of attention and may even influence votes in the November elections in the United States.

So, Arlie, let’s start off by comparing it to your previous book, Strangers in Their Own Land, which was published eight years ago. In it you were explaining the Tea Party – the people that you lived with in Louisiana. You explained why they voted in ways that contradicted their own material advantage. You found that they had other issues that were important to them.

You didn’t use the word “pride” so much in that previous book, but now I think you’ve elaborated the notion that it’s their social status that is most important, and that when that is taken away or lost, people have to manage the loss of pride and dignity and prestige that they feel entitled to and that in previous times they would have actually enjoyed.

In this new book. Stolen Pride, you describe right-wingers, a few of whom are Neo-Nazis, but most of them are just Trumpists. You lived off and on with these people in Appalachia in Kentucky to get to know them.

And gosh, you have a wonderful book! In describing these people, you manage to make them likable. I wouldn’t want to go do what you did but I can see how you could enjoy it. So, tell me how your analysis of “right-wingism” in America has been altered or expanded since the previous book. Would you say that the inhabitants of Pikeville, Kentucky are very different from the Louisiana Tea Party people you described eight years ago?

ARLIE HOCHSCHILD: Well, it’s wonderful to be with you, Metta, and we are on parallel paths, trying to make this a better world. In these last two books, I’ve tried to understand what is it that’s driving what seems like a Thermidorian reaction against much of the ‘60s and ‘70s, the work on the environment, work for rights, for minorities, women, better health, trying to lift the poor. Many of these progressive goals have suddenly become threatening to a sizable group of people in the United States today – at least 42% by my calculation.

So, what’s different between Strangers in Their Own Land and Stolen Pride? The difference is: It’s a new period of time, so the issues that are front and central have shifted and become more serious. In Strangers, I was worried about the environmental catastrophe and people’s search for answers to social issues by devotion to Donald Trump.

This year, the issue is democracy. Here’s a man who promises on Day One to get rid of the need for further elections. I think we have to take him at his word and look at what was said and laid out in Project 2025. Democracy is the new issue and in a new region – a once-Democratic, now heavily Republican area in the middle of Appalachia, and it’s new in its conceptualization. I’m telling a local story as an exaggerated version of a national story, and I’m telling a local history story for a conceptual rethink of politics. So, two things: local story tells a national story, and in that local story, I hope to illustrate the power of looking at emotions – how they be come redirected and how they get used by politicians.

So, we have to back up and ask why those feelings are what they are – pride and shame – and how they get used. In the last chapter, you’ll see historical references to pre-Nazi Germany where another very shamed culture got offered pride and relief from shame. That paradigm is very important. When you and I are long gone, that paradigm is going to continue, and I am using it in looking for a solution.

SPENCER: I’m reading the chapter where you’re talking about four stages in the way Trump makes his transition from being a bad boy to being a hero. That’s the most interesting thing! I’ve always felt, even before you and I started talking about this, that Trump kind of gloats and revels in being rude and violating every norm that you can think of. He has no shame at all. Yet somehow this becomes attractive to some people. They admire or like him because he’s standing up for something that they can’t do. They can’t defend or display their own rudeness and their own hidden sexism and racism and stuff. But he does it with pride, right?

HOCHSCHILD: That’s right. In the book I call it ‘Bad Boy pride.’ There are many different bases of pride. Of course, there’s ‘Bootstrap pride,’ when you work hard and you get to the top. Or ‘Survival pride,’ just the fact that you got through the day. And there’s ‘Bad boy pride,’ when the ‘badder’ you are, the better you are in that culture of pride.

But just to back up to who we’re talking about, I want to say that Pikeville, Kentucky, is a hub town in Appalachian region ‘Kentucky-Five’ – the congressional district that is the whitest in the whole country and the second poorest. While they used to be for FDR, New Deal Democrats, they have most swiftly moved into the Republican side, and 80% went for Donald Trump in the last two elections.

So that’s why I’m drawn to it. This is a region where coal jobs are out and opiate crisis has come in, and in 2017 I was fascinated to see that there was a Neo-Nazi white nationalist march coming to town. I thought, “Oh, my God, this is a perfect storm,” and, being the sociologist I am, ‘Okay, let me interview people. Let me interview the villain, the leader of this March, Matthew Heimbach. Let me interview the city fathers trying to prevent any violence (they did a wonderful job). Let me interview the potential victims – a Black, a Holocaust survivor, and an Imam that ran a little mosque in this district. And then let me look at the people in this community, top to bottom, side to side. Not everybody’s a MAGA Republican. A lot are Democrats, but they’re a minority. So that’s what this is based on. But while I’m telling that story, I want to tell a story of feelings.’

Of course, when you’re looking at that situation, there are many feelings – a feeling of sadness and loss: the community has gone downhill. There’s a feeling of fear: Oh my god. If it’s going this far downhill, it can go further down. And anger: Gosh, why isn’t anybody helping us? But in a proud region like that, there’s also a feeling of lost pride: Who took my pride away?

So, what are pride and shame? All of us want to feel proud, and all of us dread feeling shame. This is part of the human condition. And in a way, pride is the ‘skin’ of the self. It’s what we feel about how we think others see us. It’s not guilt, where it’s your own evaluation of your actions that you’re in response to. This is your reaction to how you feel other people see you. So, how can that be drawn into the underside of politics so powerfully? This book is a story about that.

You mentioned the ‘four moments.’ It’s a ritual. I am arguing in this book that Trump wants to be the ‘Shame President.’ I think he’s a shamed man himself. I don’t think he reads. The harsh father and being sent off to military school. And really proud people don’t behave the way he does.

Okay, so this shamed person happens to have forged – as a charismatic leader among people who are looking for a charismatic leader – a kind of ‘shame alliance.’ And why are they looking for a charismatic leader? Because they’ve given up on government as a real source of help. They’ve been waiting for help. They feel un-helped. They feel forgotten, and they are in trouble.

Background again: Non-college whites are 42% of the American population, and they’ve been sinking over the last three decades, both opportunities, many absolutely in income and opportunity, and in health and in more diseases of despair – suicide, alcoholism.

So that’s their story. Absolute loss, and also relative loss, because the BA educated whites have been going up in those last three decades, and Blacks, even without BAs, are also going up. So, their loss is both absolute and relative.

As absolute loss, you’ve lost your coal job and have to go to Cincinnati and leave the community to try to find another job that’s not paying as much. And there’s a whole social logic to that downward mobility. It’s disrupted families, high divorce, foster care up, and vulnerability to drugs. So that is their loss.
And not just loss of what they had, but a devaluation of what they knew and took pride in. So, there is what I’m calling the ‘material economy.’ That’s a story of loss.

But there’s also a ‘pride economy.’ These are very proud people who’ve had a rough time for a long time. They’ve long been poor, were kind of shoved out of Europe (many of Scots-Irish background) and came to Appalachia – a tough environment. So, they’re very proud to have resilience and the capacity to keep going. Very proud, but now downwardly mobile. In both PEACE MAGAZINE the pride economy and the material economy, they’ve lost ground. I want to make one more point before we get to how Trump uses this: I think they’re stuck in a ‘pride paradox.’ I think they’re stuck in a ‘pride paradox.’ The paradox is that they’re in rougher economic circumstances, but they’re also tougher on each other.

The paradox is that they’re in rougher economic circumstances, but they’re also tougher on each other. They hold to an old version of the Protestant Ethic: If I succeed, that’s my individual success and my individual pride. I’ve earned it. And if I fail? That’s me that failed! I failed! So that tough culture of pride exists in worse economic circumstances.

On the other hand, in the blue states, where the economy is booming and there are more opportunities, many
people have a more modern version of the Protestant Ethic. They think: Okay, if I succeeded, well, I had advantages that helped me and the company I work for is more invulnerable to offshoring and automation. So, the breeze was behind my back. And if I fail, that’s not altogether my fault. It’s a more circumstantial culture of care. You’re easier on yourself, but you also have easier circumstances. That’s the pride paradox.

SPENCER: It makes me wonder: Does this partly explain why they don’t resent rich people? They don’t resent Donald Trump for being a billionaire. In fact, maybe they say: Well, he deserved it because if you get rich, it’s because you’ve worked harder, or you’ve somehow deserved it.

HOCHSCHILD: Yes, great point. It must be something about him, not his circumstances, not his class advantage or race or gender or anything. It’s he! Exactly.

SPENCER: You would normally expect that poor people who are feeling oppressed would resent rich people. They don’t seem to resent billionaires. But you know whom they do resent?

Elites! Us urban, educated snobs! How, by the way, did you get to be on such good terms with them? Because you’re just the kind of person they resent the most!

HOCHSCHILD: I know. Later I’ll come back to how I do this kind of work. But you were mentioning, how does Trump use shame as a political tool? Why is it important to know why they respond to him?

We, the liberal left, are scratching our heads: ‘Oh, these must be crazy people. These must be stupid people. These must be uneducated people.’ But in this book, I say no, this could actually happen to a lot of us! But why? It’s so irrational. This guy brought no good luck to Appalachia in his four years.

No good luck. Their coal did not come back, though he promised it, and good jobs did not come in to substitute it. The opiate crisis did not go away, and his big tax breaks for the rich did not help the second poorest congressional district in the country. So, he’s not, in fact, helping them. Why? If they’re not nuts and they’re not stupider than you, why does this happen? And they are not nuts! They are not stupid, they but they are victims of the syndrome of shame that I describe in this book. This is my belief.

So, what are the One, Two, Three, Four steps? I think Trump appeals to people through an anti-shame ritual and it’s got, as you said, Metta, four ‘moments.’

In Moment One, he says something transgressive: ‘Immigrants are poisoning the blood of America.’ Or, ‘This judge cannot be fair because he has immigrant background.’ He’ll say something transgressive, or –

SPENCER: Or he gropes a woman on an airplane.

HOCHSCHILD: And then he’ll say, that’s fine! That would be the transgression, yeah. And, Moment Two: the punditry shames Donald Trump. ‘You can’t say that! You’re an American and you’re a president. This
thing to say. You’re dishonoring people! No, no! Bad, bad!’ So that’s Moment Two.

Moment Three: Trump positions himself as the victim of the punditry’s shaming: ‘Look at what they do! They’re saying terrible things about me. I am suffering from the elites’ shaming and this is difficult. I’m suffering for you. You’ve been shamed. I’ve been shamed. We’re being shamed together by the people who just said something disapproving of me.’ So that’s Moment Three.

SPENCER: Yeah, but there’s another thing! ‘You can’t get away with such a transgression, but you see, I can get away with it. I’m big enough and rich enough so that I can say for you what I know you really would say if you felt free to do so.’ Right?

HOCHSCHILD: Exactly, exactly! That’s a great point. ‘I’m shamed like you’re shamed, but I’m a different kind of shamed person, because I’m more powerful.’ Moment Four is the big deal. Moment Four is when he roars against the shamers. He says, ‘You nefarious press! You treasonous officials! You useless bureaucrats!’ Always outward, turning shame to blame. That’s his big roar back.

And they love that! It’s cathartic. I think when you just look at the rational policy positions, you are missing the main thing, which is the catharsis that people feel at that roar back – precisely for what you’re saying, Metta – that he’s powerful enough in his self-presentation to get revenge for them, as they would like to do. So, this is the One, Two, Three, Four. I think that people on the liberal left are looking at One and Two and stopping the story,

SPENCER: I understand why they would stop, because I go through to step four, and then I think, ‘Oh, now what to do about it?’ And I haven’t a clue.

HOCHSCHILD: Well, then that’s the conversation we need to have, because that’s what’s going on. One, Two, Three, Four – and the point of the book is: There is a Three, there is a Four! One man I talked to said, “Oh, Donald Trump, he’s like lightning in a jar.” And I said to him, “I want to understand the lightning. I’m here from outer space – Berkeley, California. But I’m really interested in shame and pride and how it works. Will you help me co-think this thing? What is that lightning?’

And so, I presented this One, Two, Three, Four to this man: “Look, I think it is working, isn’t it? This shamed population, it’s been downwardly mobile. It’s the 42% that are turning right, and even now, hard right? That’s who we need to understand. And help me understand this One, Two, Three, Four – do you think it’s working?”
is an immigrant society. That’s a terrible

He laughed. “Ha, ha, ha, ha! Yeah, I think so.” And then I said, “Do you think Trump actually pokes the bear? That is, he tries to find something else provocative so as to get Two and Three and Four going and the whole anti shaming ritual enacted?”

He laughed again, “Yeah, he pokes the bear.” Another man said to me, “Yes, that’s definitely true, and the left falls for it every time, and the media makes a mint by covering it.”

SPENCER: And these are people who themselves would still go ahead and vote for Trump, right? Even though they understand your analysis, it doesn’t make them rethink their own.

HOCHSCHILD: Because they’re more frightened and appalled by what the Democrats are doing.

SPENCER: Hmm. Okay.

HOCHSCHILD: And they blame the loss of coal on Obama by his bringing in environmental regulations, even though they know that cheaper natural gas is what led to the loss of coal, which has gone in the last four decades from being over half of the source of electric power in America to 16%. That’s not all because of Obama’s cleaning up the environment.

SPENCER: More than that, Arlie. We’re not talking only about American people who had been coal miners. We’re talking about the whole world. The same right-wing expansion is happening in other countries. I don’t know whether the logic behind it is exactly the same, but –
HOCHSCHILD: We should look.
SPENCER: Is it always the same? Is it really sort of a counter-revolution, a reaction of rural, old-fashioned values and the sense of feeling disrespected for an antiquated lifestyle? If so, there’s no solution in just pretending to be nicer to these people. I mean, I couldn’t fake
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it. Because they’re right. I do disrespect them and, and I think most of my friends also disrespect them and can’t pretend otherwise.
And the worst is that we haven’t even yet touched the real challenges that are coming. I mean, the loss of coal can’t be reversed because we’ve got global warming and that’s not even in their equation. And in terms of sophistication of urban elites and educated people, their resentment of you and me and our friends – that can’t be undone, because, in fact, we’re also going to be losing our own jobs to AI —
…this man I was just talking about,
who is voting
or Trump, is an
anguished, certainly very knowledgeable guy
HOCHSCHILD: Yeah, exactly.
SPENCER: – and there’s no future into which we can go backward. If anything, our culture, yours and mine, will itself resemble their situation. We’ll be resenting these smart-ass machines that are so much more capable than we are. So, there’s no solution.
HOCHSCHILD: That’s my last chapter! You haven’t read it yet, but you just rang one of the bells in it.
But, Metta, I don’t disrespect them! I honestly do not. I have met very many brilliat people who taught me a lot. And this man I was just talking about who is voting for Trump is an anguished, certainly very knowledgeable guy – I wouldn’t say reflective, but a guy who’s interested in renewable energy.
He wants to put solar panels on top of these sawed-off mountains. You know, there’s mountaintop removal that engineers have done in order to get to coal without hiring miners. What they do is just use machines to do it and it’s
devastating to the environment. But he’s come around. He’s not anti-renewable. In fact, he’s got an application in to one of the Biden’s Build Back Better funds, and that’s what he would like to do. So, I don’t believe in giving up on people like that, and there are amazing conversations we could have.
I see a lot of potential common ground, and I do consider the 42% that have gone from left to right as the most important sector for us to look at. We need to peel off six or seven percent of them in swing states to get the Democrats back in power and then mend some of the problems and meet some of the unanswered needs that have led to this movement to the right. There’s a lot of repairs that we need to do, but I think it’s a crucial group, and I’m not for ignoring them, and I’m not for disrespecting them, actually.
SPENCER: Well, okay, I try to be progressive and thoughtful and kind, not abusive or snobbish, but I just don’t quite see how we can revalue a culture that wants the right to own shotguns and separate toilets for boys and girls, with nothing in between and who insist that guys can’t marry guys. And those are their preoccupations. Even if we don’t sneer at their backwardness, we don’t agree with it, and I don’t know how to symbolically elevate their dignity for holding those views. I just think we have to wait until they die out, and we’re dying out with them. So, I don’t know of an answer. Look, if it were just money, we could jiggle the budget and give them more money somehow. But it’s not primarily material but a sense of lost prestige. I don’t know what you can do about that.
HOCHSCHILD: Well, there’s a lot you can do about it, Metta, and I think we need to think of politics as ‘doing something’ about it. They feel devalued. They’ve lost their world The whole status system that gave them pride has kind of melted, and they feel down-and-out, and I don’t think we can just wait till they die off in a down-and out condition. That’s not my politics.

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SPENCER: I don’t want it to be mine either!
HOCHSCHILD: That’s why I’m there. In 1996, they were 80% for Bill Clinton. You wouldn’t have called them stupid and backward then, and there’s no need to call them that now. There are differences, of course, in values. But the dance ahead with Harris and Walz will be not to go back. We’re not going back! You heard that refrain in the Democratic National Convention – not going back, but when possible, we are reaching across. That 42% of the American population is a very large minority. They got Donald Trump into the White House last time. Now he knows more clearly the damage he would like to do, and he’s trying for it again. And if we just say, ‘Oh, they’re hopeless. Oh, don’t know what I could do. I don’t agree with them. I look down on them. I couldn’t disguise it’ – that’s strategically missing the boat. I think you’re giving up on the most important thing we can do. And I think morally too. It doesn’t feel good to
look down on people.
SPENCER: I agree. I
agree. I’m just confessing my sins, and my sins include pride of accomplishing some things but I don’t go around gloating. I’m decent to people but they probably sense the truth, which is that, in any hierarchy, if you’ve got some people who are winning, you’re going to
Pikesville, Kentucky than to send about a hundred Arlie Hochschilds to live there, hang out with them, and take this guy, Matthew to lunch – which you’ve done a number of times, this Nazi guy.
By the way, you say that he changed. I don’t know how he changed. Did you have anything to do with it? Are you sure that your presence didn’t contaminate the results of your study?
HOCHSCHILD: I’m not sure. Adam says, “Look, he’s not a Nazi anymore. You pulled him to the angelic side.” No, in the book there’s another explanation for his conversion, but it points to a strange crossing of lines that the book is structured around. The guy who’s the villain in the piece at the beginning of the story – Neo-Nazi, racist guy, violent – now is thinking about getting a nursing degree. He has renounced many of his beliefs, but not all of the beliefs; it’s not an entire conversion, but he’s certainly softened.
Meanwhile, Donald Trump, who started with notes of ‘Proud again,

other side, the Democrats, will be elevating every other social group but them. Their view is that, ‘Well, the Democrats say they’re for diversity, but the one social group they can’t accept are poor whites. And so, if that’s the party of prejudice against poor whites, and I’m poor white, I’m not going to go for it.’
So, that is their point of view. We have to learn to talk to them across our differences, understanding their point of view and finding that we actually don’t even agree about what we disagree on.
That’s another whole set of findings in this book. It turns out, first of all, that liberal Democrats are far more likely to cut off a conversation with a person they see they disagree with than are conservative Republicans. And whites are more likely to cut it off than Blacks are, so we’re not great at reaching across.
It’s also true that left and right each misunderstand the positions of the guy on the other side, but people on the left misunderstand it more.
They misjudge the positions
of their adversary more than
Republicans misjudge the
positions of their adversary.
And, even worse,
education does not reduce
that fact. Highly educated
Democrats are no better at
judging what the other guys
think than are uneducated
Democrats.
have some other people who are losing. The one thing that
A stark contrast of the widening gap between the rich and the poor | © Adobe Stock
SPENCER: You’ve just described me. I’ve told you,
Donald Trump will never admit is being a loser, and so he’s important.
Now the answer that you’re giving is the right answer. If everybody made the same effort as you do to be open, generous, and warm hearted, then I think they’d come around.
In the book, you don’t talk about what questions the interviewees asked you, and how they felt about you. You talk about them, but your being there must have had an impact on the people that you interviewed. And there’s nothing better that could be done for
proud again, proud again!’ which turned into ‘shaming you again, shaming you again!’ and pointing his finger at the ‘Deep State,’ all migrants ‘going to lock them up,!’ and he’s inviting Neo-Nazis to have dinner with him at Mar a Lago.
So, while the villain at the beginning of the story gets softer, the ‘hero’ to many of them becomes more villainous.
The people I came to know are not as extreme as Donald Trump, but they haven’t moved either. They’re still going to vote for him – less enthusiastically now, but they are frightened that the
I’ve confessed, that that’s exactly my problem, and I don’t see a way to get around it. That’s life, unfortunately. I’ll agree it’s a moral flaw, but I don’t know how to fix it.
HOCHSCHILD: I think we can all change.
SPENCER: Well, I’m not so sure, but I also want to know this: Didn’t those people ask your opinion when they talked to you about their views? And I suppose you answered them and

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told them what you believe, if they asked you, and you were nice to them. You say they’re still going to vote for Trump. So, you must be in contact with them now if you know that they haven’t changed their politics yet. I’m surprised, because I would think, if anything is going to influence them, it’s exactly what you do – just being nice to people.
Maybe I’m not nice enough, and I’ll try harder, but I’m telling you, it’s built into hierarchy. If you’re going to have any hierarchy, somebody’s going to be aware of it.
HOCHSCHILD: What do you mean by being ‘nice’?
SPENCER: Well, I presume that when you invited Matthew the Nazi to lunch, you probably paid the bill. When you invited him, you made it clear to him that you were not going to jump all over him and accuse him of anything, and that you’d try to understand his point of view. You were trying not to judge him. Something like that is what I mean by being nice.
HOCHSCHILD: What I mean by being nice is something different. It means, first of all, being honest. I told him, “I’m writing a book, and I want to portray you accurately, and that’s what I’m offering you. And I’ve really got an open ear.” In fact, a trained open ear is what I think sociology is. When a conversation is exchanging judgments, I don’t think it’s being ‘nice,’ and it’s certainly boring, so I’m promising him openness, and that’s surprisingly rare, and I think valued. He asked me remarkably little about myself.
SPENCER: You’re a Berkeley lefty, and don’t you think he knew that or assumed it?
HOCHSCHILD: Of course, all of them did. I tell them, “Look, if you want to know who I am, Google me. It’s all in print. You’ll know exactly who I am. I’ve written ten books, and you can tell what my perspective is.”
So, for me, being nice is opening a
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door. It is not an expression of decorum and feminine sweetness. It’s a very serious, even kind of diplomatic and even strategic search for common ground. Arch enemies can get together, but they do it wisely when they really know what the other guy is like and what makes them tick. Nelson Mandela, who is my model, really knew what the Afrikaner mind was. He did his negotiations in Afrikaans. I admire that. That’s the kind of being nice that I’m for. I need to add that to the world, and just –
SPENCER: I do too, dear. I’m just saying (and I hope you take it as a compliment) that you are much, much better at it than I am. I wish I could be better at it. And in fact, what you’re doing is the only solution I know of that would actually change public opinion. That’s doing it one by one, somebody going in and hanging out with people and just being nice to them, in the sense that you mean it.
But I don’t see that as an easy way to win an election. We only have a few weeks in which to run around, taking people to lunch and trying to be nice in the way that you talk about it. I don’t think we can do it. So, what else have you got?
HOCHSCHILD: Well, what I’ve got is what my granddaughter is doing now. She has just finished her freshman year at Occidental College in Los Angeles, and they have a campaign semester where you actually get credit for going to a swing state, and you can be in whatever party you are, but you can’t be a Democrat and go to a Democrat state where everything’s sealed and go around and talk to people.
She has gone to Arizona. She’s now in Phoenix and spending nine-to-five days in 100 degrees, so she goes out with lots of water, and she’s doing it for a labor union that has a list of people who are undecided, and she’s boned up on all of the issues. Ruben Gallego is the candidate for Senator that she’s campaigning for. She’s talking to people, and she said she’s just learned a ton. And there was one African American guy who said, ‘I’m not going to vote at all.’
She said, ‘You know, there’s actually a $300 bonus on the Harris-Walz ticket to support new parents.’
He said, ‘No, I had no idea.’ She told me yesterday – she was so thrilled. He said, ‘Look, I see you’ve worked so hard to know the substance of these issues, and you’re telling me. I’m going to vote – not because they’re great, I don’t know if they are – but because you’ve put this much time into coming to talk to me.’
She’s being ‘nice,’ but in a very particular, effective way. So, I think there are many strategies out there. That’s what we can do.
SPENCER: I’m absolutely sure that you’re right, and I hope I’m much wronger than I think I am.
HOCHSCHILD: Well, thank you so much for this opportunity.
SPENCER: Tell me the trajectory. When does your book come out, how can people get it, and where will you be speaking?
HOCHSCHILD: Stolen Pride comes out September 10, and my itinerary on a book tour is on the website of the New Press, which is my publisher. It’s a great little nonprofit publisher, and I just love them. I’m going to be talking in a bunch of different places.
SPENCER: It sounds like the one really profound analysis of motivation that everybody in the world should be thinking about. Because, as an explanation, it can’t apply only to the current US situation. There’s a global trend – something about fear of the future and of the sophistication that’s going to be required to be successful and dignified and prominent in that new world. It’s not just limited to ex coal miners.
HOCHSCHILD: You’re spot on. And thank you!
SPENCER: It has been such fun. Love you so much. Bye.